Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea
It’s a golden rule in most businesses that salaries must be kept secret. Except for a few heretics it is almost universally accepted that mayhem would ensue in the workplace if people knew what their co-workers, their managers or - gasp - the CEO was making.
Making salaries open inside a company instead seems like a wild idea sure, but it makes a lot of sense and brings advantages for both the workplace and for its people. Read on to see why.
The case against secret salaries
There are three major reasons why salaries secret are silly:
- It frustrates employees because any unfairness (real or perceived) can’t be addressed directly.
- They’re not secret anyway. People talk, you know.
- It perpetuates unfair salaries which is bad for people and for the organization
Let’s look at each of these.
If Johnson over in production is making 1.000 more a month than I am and the CEO is making 22 times what I’m making, then hopefully there’s a good reason for it - one that I as an employee am entitled to know and capable of understanding. So why are salaries treated as state secrets?
The main reason may precisely be that they’re not currently fair and therefore making them open seems dangerous to many workplaces. Maybe Johnson is making more than me, not because he does a better job, but because he drives a harder bargain when it comes time to negotiate salaries. Or sucks up to the boss. Or has some pictures from the last christmas office party showing the VP of marketing and an intern in… never mind. That doesn’t seem fair, does it? We can all agree, I think, that it makes much more sense to determine salaries based on people’s value to the company.
I have worked at two different companies where salaries were secret and guess what: They weren’t. Most people knew what most others were getting. In one company I consulted for, the IT department had even found the Excel spreadsheets HR kept the salaries in. They knew what everyone was getting.
And here’s the problem: If Johnson’s salary is (unfairly) higher than mine, and secret, I can’t complain to my manager about it because I can’t admit that I know about it. When a company sets up a situation where people can see the unfairness but can’t address it directly, or even discuss it openly, they’re rigging the system for maximum frustration.
Companies must attempt to pay their people as fairly as possible. You might think a company should try to pay people as little as possible, but companies who subscribe to that philosophy must be prepared to steadily lose all their good employees to competitors willing to pay people what they’re worth. A company must attempt to pay each employee a fair salary, ie. one that matches the employee’s skills, the market average and other employees inside the company. In other words, the company itself has a vested interest in keeping salaries fair, and keeping salaries secret makes that nearly impossible.
The case for open salaries
Making salaries public (inside the company of course) has some major advantages:
- Salaries will become more fair. The system gets a chance to adjust itself.
- It will be easier to retain the best employees because they’re more likely to feel they’re getting a fair salary.
- The pressure is on the people with the high salaries to earn their keep. Everybody has to pull their weight - the higher the salary, the larger the weight.
I believe on a very fundamental level that openness is better than secrecy, in life and in business. I’m not naïve enough to share all information all the time, but my chosen approach is “Let’s make everything open by default and only make those things secret that absolutely need to be”. Would I share my list of prospective clients with my competitors? Nah. Would I share it inside the company? Heck, yeah!
So when I co-founded an IT company back in 1997, we decided right from the beginning to make salaries open. We even had a page on the intranet where everybody could see what everybody else got. And yes, this did cause some discussions along the lines of “Hey, why am I getting less than Johnson, my work is at least as good at his”. We took those discussions seriously and we either clarified the difference in salary (eg. “Johnson gets more because his clients are consistently more satisfied than yours”) or we adjusted the salaries to match.
Semco is a Sao Paulo-based company of 3.000 people who’ve gone one step further: They allow employees to set their own salaries. No really, they do! This works only because all salaries are open. I could demand a high salary and get it but I’d better be showing results because people are sure to be watching those who make a lot of money. That’s a business experiment only for the truly daring enterprise, but Semco has demonstrated for the rest of us that it can work.
Ricardo Semler, the owner of Semco said this about the value of discussing salaries openly:
Salaries are a sensitive subject, but open communication is important enough that it should be tested, even if there is a price to pay. It’s at the very heart of a shared culture. If discussion of salaries is taboo, what else is off limits? The only source of power in an organization is information, and withholding, filtering, or retaining information only serves those who want to accumulate power through hoarding. Once an e-mail is not circulated, or if it is edited, then illegitimate pockets of power are created. Some people are privy to information that others don’t possess. Remove those pockets, and a company removes a source of dissatisfaction, bickering, and political feuding.
- Ricardo Semler in his excellent book The Seven-Day Weekend
You tell’em Ricardo. Making salaries open opens yet another pocket of information that the power-hungry would otherwise use to consolidate their positions - to the detriment of co-workers and the organization.
So come on: Make salaries public. Put them on the intranet. I dare you! Why keep them a secret?
There is one requirement for open salaries to work though: Employees must know what factors influence salaries. Are they based on customer satisfaction, hours worked, quality, sales figures, seniority, skills, commitment to the compay, education, etc… What matters when setting salaries and what doesn’t matter? If the company has not clearly stated this, comparisons are meaningless. It is of course management’s responsibility to know and to publicize the factors that determine employees’ salaries.
In our company we decided this together, and we agreed that the most important factors would be customer satisfaction and commitment to the company and that formal education and seniority didn’t matter. We put this in a document on the intranet as well. I can safely say, that making salaries open was one of the best things we did for our company and it almost made salary a non-issue - it was certainly nothing that caused us any frustration or troubles.
So try it: Make salaries open. I double-dare you.
UPDATE: This post sure generated a lot of comments. I love it! I’ve posted a comment round-up here.
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Ron Burke Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 10:20 am
Why, oh why do companies live in the perpetual la-la-land that these are secret? I can tell you what everyone within 3 steps of me makes at the company where I work. They have a “If you discuss it, you are immediately fired” policy. Obviously that hasn’t stopped anyone.
SoftWave » O plaćama i tajnama Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 11:41 am
[…] Vuk je krasno komentirao najnoviji post Chief Happiness Officera, o tome kako su tajne plaće — koje su nažalost norma u našim tvrtkama — loša stvar, pa da se malo nadovežem. […]
Manjusha Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 2:39 pm
Its an interesting idea, but I am not sure how many companies would be in line to adopt this policy.
Paul -V- Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 2:56 pm
If employees had a verifiable way of knowing how much management made, they would startrt demanding a greater share of the wealth. That is why it is made hush-hush by the corporation.
Sosuke Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 3:36 pm
I already know that management makes more than me, I don’t care what other people make and I don’t want to know. If I have more bargaining skills then I deserved to get that extra 1,000 a year. The world isn’t fair. If I were running a company I want salaries secret because I don’t want open discussion or requests for raises all the time on company time. I’m sure you’ll find that salaries in similar fields are comprable to the work involved. The CEO makes 22 times what you do? If you feel like you could do his job then get motivated and become a CEO, even take his job, but don’t expect it to be handed to you.
erik Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 3:41 pm
I would suggest that on the intranet page where everybody’s salary is listed, have a link to their resume, and encourage employees to keep their resume updated. Not only would it silence most of the discrepency complaints, I’ve found that really useful in understanding the skillsets of my coworkers, and it greatly enhances the flexibility of the company.
Dennis Forbes Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
Do you really think that coworkers will acknowledge that some of their peers contribute more to the company bottom line? Do you really think they’ll appreciate market forces (supply/demand)?
The guy cleaning the toilets is undoubtedly filling a critical role, and he’s probably damn sure that the piss-ant chair warmers who spend work hours complaining about coworker salaries shouldn’t be making more than him, but he makes a marginal wage because he’s easily replaceable. Similarly, there are people with company or industry skills who make more than you because they’re less replaceable than you, something that management realizes but you never will. They know that they’ll never be able to pound this into your skull, so they mandate secret salaries EVEN IF THEY KNOW YOU’LL FIND OUT. At least it saves them from listening to you complain all the time.
Open salaries, where everyone can piss and moan to their managers all day long leads to two things — salary “grades”, where roles have tight grades and ensure a homogenous mediocrity, or ENDLESS petitions for raises because Sally over in sector G makes $200 / year more.
Bert Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 4:09 pm
There are a few unspoken assumptions required to make the open salary system work. Assumptions which are nowhere near being true. In order to have susch a system you need to have a fair and/or objective way to set salaries. There are three options, all of which fail under scrutiny.
1. Base salaries on job titles
People with the same job title and responsibilities (even with he same experience) do not necessarily contribute equally to the company bottom line. Some workers are more efficient, often picking up the slack of others.
People will not accept that maybe they are not as efficient as some of their colleagues with the same job titles and should therefore should get a lower salary.
2. Base it Experience (The dreaded resume salary scale)
Resume in no way predict or assess accurately the contribution an employee will make to the company. This kind of system is what has lead a number of people to spend a number of productive years doing nothing but resume padding, acquiring no skills, contributing nothing but building one heck of a resume.
3. And finally the worst possible of all salary setting systems, seniority
Just look at any government bureaucracy anywhere to understand why this is such a bad idea.
Bert
breddy.net » Should Salaries be Secret? Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 4:49 pm
[…] This interesting post raises this very question and even makes the case that no, they should not be. Keeping salaries under wraps is the default protocol here in the U.S. of A., and I now wonder if it does more harm than good. Here’s one of the key points that made me think: And here’s the problem: If Johnson’s salary is (unfairly) higher than mine, and secret, I can’t complain to my manager about it because I can’t admit that I know about it. When a company sets up a situation where people can see the unfairness but can’t address it directly, or even discuss it openly, they’re rigging the system for maximum frustration. […]
Frank Jones Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 5:14 pm
Knowledge is power and management wants this power in negotiation. Usually most people do not find out other people’s secret salaries.
If one person is a better negotiator, management does not want that one person’s abilities to give a boost to other people.
joe Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 5:28 pm
I love the concept, however I think there are some difficult repercussions. As the author points out, companies will need to clearly define how salaries are calculated. This limits hiring managers ability to account for factors that aren’t identified.
A lengthy debate on the subject would be interesting. For example, I think open salaries would do wonders in the battle against glass ceilings for women and different races… a very real problem.
Art Mellor Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 5:38 pm
Open salaries are a great idea for the reasons described here. I’ve run companies where we did this and it forces you to set the salaries fairly.
One of the other commenters mentions that people will get upset when others know that they are making less than someone else who does the same job. This is true (and get truer as the company gets bigger), so we came up with a solution.
Salaries were open, but not posted. Anyone could go to the CEO and find out what anyone else was making. The CEO was there to explain why and the person whose salary was asked for would be told who had asked for it.
This allowed people to know about salaries, forced the CEO to make sure they could all be defended, but didn’t publicly humiliate someone who was not where they felt they should be.
Forced honesty is generally a good principle to build into any system.
Daniel Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 5:45 pm
Nice article, bad idea.
There are too many considerations that go into compensation, and they certainly aren’t all tangible. Someone’s ability to market themselves, despite having fewer credentials, and receive a higher salary *is* worth more in many cases. Why?
Because they can use that skill elsewhere to the benefit of the company.
If management had to provide indepth explanations as to the myriad of reasons why Bob makes more than Tom, that would not only be a neverending exercise, but it would be wholly unsucessful.
Well, I have a degree from this school…his is only from that school. I have this cert and he doesn’t. Customers like me; they hate him. He doesn’t even show up to work on time…
All these things have various associated values that depend on the organization, the managers making the decisions, and the employees themselves. The problem is, the employee’s opinion doesn’t matter.
That’s where you’ve gone wrong. It’s not up to them to decide how much these things are worth. It’s not up for discussion. If it becomes so, then it’ll become *the* topic of debate in the workplace.
“I think x should get more than y. Bob doesn’t even do paperwork, and he makes z more than I do.”
It’s a nightmare. Seriously.
Curious Cat Management Improvement Blog » Blog Archive » Open Salary Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 6:02 pm
[…] Why Secret Salaries are a Baaaaaad Idea […]
eric Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 7:22 pm
Dennis (above) has said it best and I second it.. almost word for word, this is what I was going to say to this not well thought out blog entry.
(I suspect all liberals will agree with the poster and conservatives with me & Dennis)
While “equality” is great in theory, it hardly ever equates in the real world.
People who believe in absolute equality never see anything besides black and white.. they promote their ideas as “progressive” but they are actually simplistic and not well thought out.
Here is what Dennis said (from above) and I mean every word of it.
:>
>>”Do you really think that coworkers will acknowledge that some of their peers contribute more to the company bottom line? Do you really think they’ll appreciate market forces (supply/demand)?
** UM NO, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS THEY WON’T **
The guy cleaning the toilets is undoubtedly filling a critical role, and he’s probably damn sure that the piss-ant chair warmers who spend work hours complaining about coworker salaries shouldn’t be making more than him, but he makes a marginal wage because he’s easily replaceable. Similarly, there are people with company or industry skills who make more than you because they’re less replaceable than you, something that management realizes but you never will. They know that they’ll never be able to pound this into your skull, so they mandate secret salaries EVEN IF THEY KNOW YOU’LL FIND OUT. At least it saves them from listening to you complain all the time.
** YES, ALL THE TIME, AND CALLING THE ATTOURNEY GENERAL AND THE BBB AND ON AND ON….****
Open salaries, where everyone can piss and moan to their managers all day long leads to two things — salary “grades?, where roles have tight grades and ensure a homogenous mediocrity, or ENDLESS petitions for raises because Sally over in sector G makes $200 / year more. “
George Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 7:31 pm
I would love to see this.
I think the bit about holding people accountable in a public eye makes the most sense. If people know their peers know what they make, then they will really try to earn it.
Good read.
Thomas H. Ptacek Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 7:39 pm
Compensation in large companies is hard, and the answers are never as simple as “just open everything up”.
The company generally wants to retain as much productive talent as it can for the minimum amount of money (the company that doesn’t is betraying its shareholders).
Some employees value things beyond maximized salary; nice hours, good benefits, relaxed work environment, whatever. Other employees are coldly rational about their monetary compensation. They’re going to work at the job that pays them the most.
The company wants to keep both these types of people. But it can’t do that if it’s going to be forced to pay absolute top dollar for every employee. All else considered, the company that “normalizes” salary by productivity is going to pay an ambitious employee less than she could make at a company that doesn’t do that. Some talented and ambitious candidates won’t even consider a company with “salary bands”. That sucks for the company; those people are valuable.
In market-driven companies you are generally going to make what you can sell yourself for. This isn’t a bad thing; it creates an huge incentive for team members to differentiate themselves. The alternative is planned economy.
At the end of the day, your salary is between you and your employer. If you are worth $10,000 more a year, that fact has nothing to do with what your co-workers make. You should be able to convince management that they will lose by allowing you to leave the company over your salary. If you can’t convince management of that, management is either dumb (not unlikely) — in which case no amount of “compensation management” is going to fix your solution, or you’re dumb (also not unlikely) and should be happy with what you get.
One possible solution that management can employ to get around nosy employees is to keep salaries relatively normalized, but offer incentive compensation (stock, bonuses). I know what Joel Spolsky thinks about this (incentive pay is counterproductive because nobody ever feels appropriately rewarded). But if your company can’t reward employees appropriately in a performance review, it probably can’t reward them appropriately under any other circumstances.
Joe Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 7:56 pm
I run a business.
In a perfect world, we would be able to share everyone’s salary.
But this world isn’t perfect.
Here’s an example:
A few years ago, we had a local drought in the market for certain positions. As a result, we had to lure employees to relocate. The only way to do that was to offer relatively higher salaries than the norm. Not much more, but noticable.
Since then, the drought has ended. Now we are able to hire equal employees at more reasonable salaries.
So we are in a position where we have several employees who are, in effect, overpaid, due to market conditions. We also have many more equally talented employees who are paid several thousand dollars less.
It is practically impossible to ask employees to accept lower salaries, and we wouldn’t presume to. Those contracts were hammered out at the going rate, and we’ll honor them.
In an open salary system, the only “acceptable” solution would be to raise everyone’s salary to the same over-priced level.
Chris Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 8:08 pm
What do you do if someone’s performance drops? Do you cut salary, withhold raises, threaten firing and follow through if things don’t improve?
Beyond causing a sense of injustice between unequal-salaried employees, another reason I can see for keeping salaries secret is to prevent undue embarassment for those whose performance drops or stagnates over a review period. If Joe Salesguy’s salary drops or stays level, everyone from VP Bob to Bill the doorman knows why (or think they do).
That’s darn embarassing, and potentially unfairly so, if there were extenuating, but private, circumstances. And while a little shame _can_ go a long way for improving performance of slackers, that really depends on the person’s personality. Mental anguish, anyone?
I like the idea for it’s openness and honesty, but I see so many places where it would be difficult or impossible to implement this without a lot of “casualties”. No large corporation I’ve been acquainted with would be able to implement this. They are too invested in hiring anyone and everyone, and then relying on their internal processes and infrastructure to cover the incompetencies of their employees. And incompetent employees are the ones who would suffer greatest from open salaries.
I understand though that you’re directing this at small businesses, startups, etc. I am cautiously optimistic at the suggestion.
Anonymous Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 8:14 pm
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Chris Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 8:19 pm
Followup to my previous comment. After a little thought, I propose an alternative to completely open salaries.
Instead, just let people decide for themselves if they want to share that information. Employees are free to disclose their own salary and no one else’s. The only time a manager can disclose anything about someone’s salary is to verify the correctness of what an employee has claimed.
Some people are sure to be open, while others will be more reserved, and it will depend on the situation for each person. This seems most fair to me. Everyone will know that any salary that remains undisclosed is because of that employee’s personal decision. And this way their reasons remain private as well.
Alexander Said,
August 8, 2006 @ 11:02 pm
Ron: You mean to say that you and your co-workers reveal your salaries in clear violation of company policy? I’m shocked :o)
Sosuke: That’s a commendable attitude. The important thing is that you think you’re paid fairly.
Erik, chris, Art: Excellent suggestions / modifications to complete openness. Your ideas show that it doesn’t need to be all open or all secret.
Joe: I see your situation - it is tricky. The question is: Don’t people inside the company already know that the guys hired during the drought are paid more? if they don’t know can you continue to keep it a secret? If it eventually will come out, might it not be worth it to address this issue sooner rather than later? I’ve always believed that open resentment is better that hidden, suppressed resentment because than you can do something about it.
Paul v: Exactly!
Thomas: Great arguments! I still hold that the company’s interest is not in paying as little as possible. THAT would be a betrayal of the shareholders because it would mean losing all the good employees. It is in the company’s interest to pay employees as fairly as possible, not as little as possible. Secret salaries make this more difficult. I’m not saying that making salaries open is without problems - I’m suggesting that maybe it causes fewer problems, especially in the long run, than secret salaries do.
Frank, George: Thanks for the kind words!
Daniel: I suggest that management sets the parameters that determine pay. Then employees know what they’re judged on and have some insight into why this person is paid more than that person. Just having that discussion on what should count when setting pay and what shouldn’t can be a huge eye-opener and for great benefit.
Bert: All the methods of calculating salary you mention are indeed hideous but there’s at least one more way to determine pay: By what you’re worth to the company. The more you’re worth, the higher your pay. That’s what we did in our company, and while it’s not an easy thing to estimate it’s the most fair.
manjusha: Many companies seem immensely reluctant to try many things that make complete and total sense. They prefer business as usual. The companies that do try open salaries generally tend to like it though.
Dennis: Absolutely - if your main objective is to avoid complaints from employees then secret salaries make perfect sense. You could actually make THAT the rule: Employees may discuss salaries between themselves, but may not complain about them to management. That would be honest :o) Seriously: I still believe that open salaries don’t result in more complaining - they bring complaints out in the open where they can be dealt with, which fater some time results in fewer complaints and more happiness at work.
joe: I hadn’t even though about the glass ceiling but you’re right - this is one way to reveal gender-based differences in salary. Thanks!
Eric G Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 12:01 am
>>”joe: I hadn’t even though about the glass ceiling….. ”
REALLY?
HONESTLY?
I Highly doubt that…
It seems your thought process is a little on the “liberal” side of things and by that I mean “equality for everyone is a good thing” type of attitude.
(no offense meant toward you personally….ok?)
Equality and openess in salaries is NOT a good thing and never will
be unless you work at Burger King. (and even then it’s iffy)
My Thoughts…
1. You are assuming everyone is equal and will contribute equally and therefore deserve “equal” compensation.
>> This will never be the case. we are not equal creatures (see below)
2. Women deserve the same pay as men: NOT true.
Well, that’s inflammatory.. What I mean is it’s true and not so true.
This goes back to # 1
If the woman in question contributes more to her job than a male counterpart, she deserves MORE, if not.., she deserves less, anything different allows a male to slack off and a female to “have to work twice as hard” (which we hear SO often) or vice versa
3. This way of thinking is just another push to the “warm and fuzzy” feelings many of us today seem to need. “Every one is equal.”
I have a newsflash for everyone…we are NOT all equal, we will never be.
I am not talking about skin color, gender or sexual orientation.. I am talking about the employable quality of humans; we have different levels of employee quality.
Some of us are lazy bastards that surf the web all day and do as little as possible (and then bitch about salaries)
Some work tirelessly for no other reason than their work ethic.
Some are selfish.
Some are selfless.
Some are a mix.
Sally comes into work every day and works on the corporate website processing; she produces about 35 pages of code each day, every day. She thinks up new ways to streamline data coming in from the internet and how to make it all connect in the back office.
Sally works an average of 45 minutes more than Ron each day.
John, Fred and Randie all do a decent job but put in less “work” than Sally, each producing between 10-20 pages of “code”. They are generally on time and do not work late or leave early. They are “team players”, but do not do much beyond what they are assigned.
Ron, the supervisor, comes in 10-15 minutes late each day and slips out on average of 30 minutes early. Ron checks up on the coders work of yesterday by viewing the results in his cubicle at 10AM, he is finished with Sally’s at 10:15 (as he is everyday because Sally rarely makes a mistake), he spends 15-30 minutes reviewing the work of his other 3 coders.
Ron gives his boss Joe a verbal report on his 4 coders each day at 4:15
Ron users the other 6 + hours to make personal calls, surf the web and make googlie eyes at Sally’s “Sweet Ass” when she goes to the ladies room.
Ron makes 85k
Sally makes 35K
John makes 27K
Randie makes 33K
Fred makes 46K
Who is more valuable to this company? Should they all get equal pay? Should Ron the supervisor get paid LESS?
If you think you know the answers without needing to know anything more about the company.. you are a dumbass.
You do NOT know the situations, the personal connections, the lack thereof, the interaction, the needs of one on the many, the cog, the hub, the wheel, how things work there, how they do not.
You do not know Sally’s emotional state, when she was hired, when Fred got his raise, what he did to get it…
Equality would not work here and releasing salary data would bring cries of equality from almost everyone. That would disrupt the entire company and workflow.
Try telling someone they are not worth as much as someone else because they don’t work as hard or their “intrinsic” value is higher..
see how fast you get sued.
Get it?
www.mediasheep.net » Keeping Salaries a secret and why women (or men) are not all equal. Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 12:05 am
[…] I recently visited a blog with a post of the neeed for open posting of pay in companies.http://positivesharing.com/2006/08/why-secret-salaries-are-a-baaaaaad-idea/ […]
Alexander Kjerulf Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 12:20 am
Eric G: I not only think Ron sounds wildly overpaid, he sounds like he needs to look for employment somewhere else - preferrably with a competitor.
To make it clear: I’m not advocating equal salaries, just open salaries. Your claim that open salaries would lead to a demand for equal salaries doesn’t sound right to me.
Steve Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 12:27 am
I’ve first hand experience of sharing salaries and performance reviews in the Netherlands - all salaries were public knowledge - it didn’t have any effect - the HR department just got good at feeding a different line of bs: “Really your capability based against Rene’s is only your opinion - we had Rene in here yesterday claiming he had a right to an even larger salary because he has far more seniority than you ” - so we were all left with the same feeling of helplessness but now mixed with a bit of personal animosity to your coworkers - and with respect to evaluations . . . it got silly - over time they removed any topics that seemed contentious because it caused morale problems (translation: work for HR) - so we had “Able to avoid Conflict” in two different places so people like me would be hosed - and “Showed Leadership Capabilities” in another place so worms like Rene would be hosed and we all ended up getting a “Very Good”. Very democratic - but ineffective.
Jon Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 1:33 am
if you make salaries open all it actually does is invite dissent and hurts productivity. Yes in a perfect world everyone gets paid exactly what they deserve, but we all know this world is unfair, so deal with it. The only way to keep people happy in this particular sector is to keep them in the dark about others salaries, it’s a private agreement between you and the company, there is no reason for anyone else to know. If managment does not know how to manage their budget on salaries, that is their problem, not yours.
Hanuman Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 1:38 am
You may want to checks the laws in your state. Some states have made it illegal for companies to restrict communication of salaries. I worked in one company in Colorado that ran afoul of such a law. :)
mofino Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 4:48 am
Amazing concept! It makes so much sense! I can’t wait to table this and get feedback. This might just turn our office around.
Timothy Johnson Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 4:56 am
One of the most liberating things I derived from becoming an independent consultant was that I no longer fretted over salary decisions. I’m paid now what the market supports… some years that is more, some years it is less. Some other consultants make more than I do; some make less. But the liberating part is that I’m not concerned about whether my next raise is going to be 3% or 4%; what the person across the aisle makes is of absolutely no concern. Wasn’t it Ben & Jerry’s that adopted the philosophy that the top salary in the organization could not be more than 6 times the bottom salary? I don’t know if they still do that, but it at least mitigates the ridiculous executive salaries that have given many corporations black eyes. Secret vs. open is a myth that corporations maintain. As long as employees have mouths, eyes, and ears (among other input devices), salaries will never be completely secret. Awesome post and fantastic discussion!
Rich Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 5:33 am
I’ve liked this idea and advocated it for years. You do a good job laying out the rationale and benefits. That said, there are some real down sides. I think the value of this approach is most apparent in an organization where management is percieved has having a significant lack of fairness — generally in areas beyond salary/benefits.
I’ve been in organizations where it’s was clear that the behaviors that were being rewarded were clearly counter to the stated goals/values of the group (even the nebulous quality, customer satisfaction, etc.). Bluster & ego got you a lot farther than good work & good revenue. A disfunctional situation like this is principally perpetuated by secrecy since, in any rational terms (or even any terms they’re not embarrassed to relate), management can’t justify the salary situation. Without secrecy, personality, preferences, and bias are much more likely to see some harsh light and specific crticism.
That said, in organizations that are not so disfunctional, where management really is fair and justified in its decisions, secrecy can be beneficial — Joe Said’s example is a perfect illustration. There is a human element to salary negotiation, there is an acceptable lack of parity for equal performers. With everything laid completely bare, otherwise good management spends a lot more time juggling the system and justifying it.
So, secrecy (or at least a lack of official publilcation) is OK, if and only if management has and can maintain trust of the employees. There are all kinds of ways that management’s fairness becomes apparrent outside of salary discussions. Good management will take advantage of those situations both because it’s helpful to it’s management’s goals and because it’s a good and fair way to deal with people.
Salaries, income and the wage gap at Trying to follow Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 6:15 am
[…] I ran across this article about making salaries open rather then a secret and it reminded me I haven’t posted on the church addressing the wage gap. The article was basically about the dangers and negative outcomes of companies keeping their salaries a secret. There are three major reasons why salaries secret are silly: […]
impossible Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 7:00 am
There is no formula that translates what a person does directly into an indisputable dollar value.
That is the problem.
The solution is secret salaries.
Scott Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 7:09 am
Alexander,
You could never, ever come up with a formula that calculates the true worth of an employee to the company.
If you measured employees largely by senority, you end up with a workforce who do just enough work not to get fired - their salaries just increase over time.
If you measure employees by work habits, you end up with a workforce who spends all their energy giving the appearance of hard work, and less on actual work. And it discourages innovative thinking.
If you measure employees based on anything outside their direct control (the company’s overall profits, the profitability of the project they are working on, whether a project ships on time), then employees will start to believe that nothing they do has any impact on their salary.
For instance, if you are paid based on if your project ships on time, and the client changes the specs at the last minute which causes you to lose your ship date, you will be demotivated and perhaps angry at the client.
Now ideally you will want an employee that is punctual, strives for self-improvement, doesn’t call in sick, delivers on time, works on profitable clients, owns up to their mistakes, goes the extra mile even when its not called for, etc. — but you could never create a financial formula that is fair, because something will always happen that will penalize an employee financially when it’s not the employees fault or reward an employee when they had nothing to do with it.
And so sometimes life is not fair. Sometimes Angelina Jolie does pick Brad Pitt instead of me. Sometimes the CEO only shows up at the office 100 days a year, and he still makes 5 times more than me.
Sometimes in striving to be fair, we are actually being the most unfair.
Chris Corrigan Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 8:00 am
When I worked for the federal government I made a point of telling people what my salary was if they asked or challenged me. I was paid good money - upwards of $60,000 a year - for leading consultations on a broad public policy process. When disgruntled members of the public would ask me how much their tax dollars were paying me, I would tell them. That was a little shocking for most people to hear that kind of honesty, but I would go a step further and invite them to complain to my boss if they feel they weren’t getting their money’s worth.
No complaints. Only a few requests to work harder, which I usually did out of respect to the public.
mica Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 8:22 am
Or, perhaps, I just don’t want to share that info as it’s not anyone else’s business. Only my employer, accountant, and wife know what I make - and that’s the way I want it.
Dan Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 9:19 am
If everyone were shown the salaries and allowed to set their own, I assume that all my fellow workers who do similar jobs would probably set an amount that is at least fair, maybe a bit more than fair! So I would find the lowest of them, and pick a number $1,000 lower. That way, if I have an unproductive day, people will say “well, he is the lowest-paid of the lot,” and if I have a productive one, they will say “he is worth more than that,” but either way, I get a salary that is pretty close to what is fair, and that is enough. :)
Anon Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 11:05 am
One option is to disclose where you stand relative to your peers, without disclosing their exact salary.. that way, you get the information you want, without jeopardizing the privacy of others… this would work better in a bigger company rather than startups, I suppose.
landed.ru Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 11:27 am
WE FACED THE PROBLEM WHEN THE MARKET HAVE A GREAT DEMAND
BUT WELL-qualified personell is not ready to give all knoledge for so small salaries. LABOUR FORCE INCREASING in value but market is not
ready for this desbalance. EU gives us new threads of competition. THIS SITUATION IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR FOR ALL FORMER USSR CONTRIES.
SO WE HAVE TO KEEP IN BIG SECRET OUR WAGE OFFER TO ATTRACT
WORKERS. http://WWW.LANDED.RU
-
-
Журнал пользовател? chugai@bk.ru
http://blogs.mail.ru/bk/chugai/
BLOGS@MAIL.RU
ru-ru
-
http://avt.foto.mail.ru/bk/chugai/_avatar
Журнал пользовател? chugai@bk.ru
http://blogs.mail.ru/bk/chugai/
-
LANDED.RU
?ЕКОММЕРЧЕСКИЙ БЛОГ ?ГЕ?СТВ? LOVE&EMOTIONS DESIGN владельца брендОВUKRAINE GOLDEN PLACESMR. SpyKeБОРЩ ФЕСТhttp://www.landed.ru
chugai@bk.ru
http://blogs.mail.ru/bk/chugai/493168E5D2972195.html
http://blogs.mail.ru/bk/chugai/493168E5D2972195.html
http://blogs.mail.ru/bk/chugai/493168E5D2972195.html?thread=0&page=1&begin_reply=1#begin_reply
Mon, 31 Jul 2006 10:59:11 -0000
Под впечатлением
Deon Botha Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 11:44 am
Know a local company that used open salaries and also had employees set their own salaries. This entrepreneur took it further and had an open finacial books policy where employees had to look at the financials of the company and understand them. Each employee had to justify their worth, understand their own cost to company, and think like an owner.
The company is still described as the best company in many different ways 2+ years after the entrepreneur decided to use his exit strategy. Other companies in that sector are still copy catting the entrepreneurs best practices and not really achieving the desired results and the employees of the bought out company now all hold high ranking jobs with some of the biggest companies in the industry.
It works if done correctly. It kills a company if done incorrectly. There is no middle ground on this one.
BG Blog » Blog Archive » Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 12:32 pm
[…] // Utajnianie pensji [j. ang.] Rzetelny artykuł na positivesharing.com: tutaj. O problemach, związanych z utajnianiem wysokości pensji w firmach. […]
BG Blog » Blog Archive » Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 12:33 pm
[…] // Utajnianie pensji [j. ang.] Rzetelny artykuł na positivesharing.com: Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea. O problemach, związanych z utajnianiem wysokości pensji w firmach. […]
Porque salários secretos são uma má idéia — Pensando Marketing Archive Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 1:09 pm
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea […]
Eric G Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 2:08 pm
Alexander, that is where you are absolutely wrong in this article….
you proved my point completely
>> “Eric G: I not only think Ron sounds wildly overpaid, he sounds like he needs to look for employment somewhere else - preferrably with a competitor”
Here are the details you DIDN’T know…
Ron is the ONLY guy capable of reading and testing 95 total pages of code in a few hours and instantly be able to point out mistakes or “bad” code.. He is a human debugger.
The company previously had to hire 3 people to do what Ron can do in just a few hours. By having Ron (for all his slackerness) the Company saves over 25K a year.
Ron is a genius and he can spot this stuff instanly but lacks the creativity to do it himself.. So is he still no longer valuable to the company?
This is what I mean..
OPEN Salaries are a bad idea, everyone would assume.. (as you did) that Ron wasn’t worth the paper his checks were printed on.
But in this case, he most certainly is…..
Get it yet?
the jackol’s den » Why secret salaries are a bad idea - Mikhail Esteves Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 3:00 pm
[…] Link […]
Serect Salaries or Open Salaries? - lifehack.org Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 3:41 pm
[…] You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site. Share and Enjoy:These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers canshare and discover new web pages. […]
» Blog Archive » Today’s links that matter… Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 5:34 pm
[…] Why secret salaries are a bad idea… […]
Jeff Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 6:47 pm
Welll in Norway for 3 months every year you can look at anyones tax returns….so this is possible to know what people make.
The Performance & Talent Management Blog Said,
August 9, 2006 @ 9:32 pm
Wanna know how much I make?
The Chief Happiness Officer does. And he’s got good reason for wanting to know. Among other things, he thinks it might make salaries more fair, make it easier to retain the best employess and keep pressure on the highest earners to…
Enzo Said,
August 10, 2006 @ 12:28 am
There shouldn’t be any salaries at all, at least not capped ranges. Why not? Because the main goal of a business is to make money. If you can save millions in the cost of the operation or add millions in revenue, then you deserve a share of that. It’s all about adding value.
If you get paid a full-time wage, why bust your ass and fight to push your ideas to “upper management” so the company will make millions and you won’t see a dime. It doesn’t make any sense and companies should wake up and realize this. This is why many people keep their best ideas to themselves and spin off their own companies.
Pushing ideas or getting management to listen in most big corporations is futile.
Zeroization » Blog Archive » Salaries shouldn’t be secret Said,
August 10, 2006 @ 3:42 am
[…] The Chief Happiness Officer has an excellent post making a case for salaries being made public knowledge. It’s one of the most insightful things I’ve read on the topic. The post suggests there are three reason why secret salaries are a bad idea: it makes compensation unfair, it frustrates any debate about the topic (as it is secret,) and its a poorly kept secret. In the realm of economics we’d call this an information asymmetry - and where there is an information asymmetry, there cannot be an efficient market. […]
AccMan Pro / Be open about salaries - I dare you Said,
August 10, 2006 @ 4:22 am
[…] I’ve not talked about talent management in professional firms for a while but a post I saw by self styled Chief Happiness Officer, Alexander Kjerulf, made me stop dead in my tracks: Semco is a Sao Paulo-based company of 3.000 people who’ve gone one step further: They allow employees to set their own salaries. No really, they do! This works only because all salaries are open. I could demand a high salary and get it but I’d better be showing results because people are sure to be watching those who make a lot of money. That’s a business experiment only for the truly daring enterprise, but Semco has demonstrated for the rest of us that it can work. […]
Alexander Said,
August 10, 2006 @ 12:33 pm
Thanks again for all the great comments, people - I really appraeciate the input!
Steve: Thanks for the story! Your example definitely illustrates how not to do it. If the company is not prepared to honestly evaluate salaries, but only to feed employees a new flavor of bs, then it’s better not to do it.
Jon: I don’t think it so much invites dissent as it uncovers what dissent is already present and gives the company an opportunity to deal with it rather than let it stew for a long time. I’ve always preferred to get disagreement out in the open.
hanuman: Good point on the law stuff.
mofino: Glad you liked it. Let me know how it goes!
Rich: I see your point. But couldn’t you argue that in organizations where trust is present, making salaries open would cause far fewer problems? Management would have to spend less tme justifying various salaries, because most employees would just assume that a trusted manager knows what she’s doing in setting that salary.
impossible: I agree, a formula is impossible. But you can still try to make salaries as fair as possible, even though some degree of subjective judgement will be inevitable. But this is true whether salaries are open or secret and open salaries will reduce unfair subjective judgements.
Chris Corrigan: Nice example - pretty brave of you!
mica: I agree. Salary has for a long time been a taboo topic and that is hard to change. But does it really need to be? Why is salary such a personal subject?
Dan: I like your strategy. And it shows that for most people it’s not the absolute figure that matters - its’ whether the salary is considered fair.
Anon: Good point and another good compromise between totally open and totally secret.
landed.ru: I see how business in eastern europe can have special issues as their economy develops. I don’t have enough insight into this market to know whether open salaries would help or hurt.
Deon: Thanks for the case story! And I agree: This is not something you undertake lightly. For one, it’s kinda hard to go back on.
Jeff: Thanks for the Norwegian update. Don’t they also do that in Finland?
Eric G: I agree completely that salaries should be set based on performance/results. A good manager would have no trouble explaining to the company why Ron gets the pay he gets. In fact, it might even do Ron some good and gain him some respect in the company to have his high salary justified publicly, rather than have me and everyone wondering why the lazy, shifty SOB is so overpaid.
Enzo: Companies that share their profits with the employees in one way or another consistently find that this increases happiness at work, motivation, productivity, quality and customer service. And that is one reason people go it alone. Another reason is of course the basic human urge to create something all your own.
The top 10 advantages of low-rent living Said,
August 11, 2006 @ 10:40 am
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaaad idea […]
DIO Said,
August 12, 2006 @ 6:15 am
Just wondering whether there will be a corrective force or will salaries just spiral out of control. Also, during a recession, will there be a “price war” between existing employees? Human psychology can be so difficult to predict sometimes…
Dieter Brunner Said,
August 12, 2006 @ 7:48 am
We are in our third year, and our salary info is open to all. All are based on the volume we do, and is then broken down by job function. Each two years the salary is reviewed by each person and the president. It is adjusted if needed, and the argument surports it. Not one argument has come up.
We also include a mandatory financial advicer(paid by the company) to review goals set by employees before an argument can be made. This has resulted in more earnings, profits for the employees. Its not what you make, its what you spend theory. Our employees know what to do with their hard earned money. It has worked for us, and we receive more application then what we know what to do. Most job seekers tell us they want to work for us because we are open. And the financial advice makes them rich.
Morten Tor Nielsen Said,
August 12, 2006 @ 6:57 pm
I disagree. Except in the case where everyone gets the same salery (Virgin Records did that in their younger days).
Dave Matthews band is doing the same thing for all the band members, and I don’t see why small computer outfits shouldn’t be doing the same.
Back in the day, we were awarded warrants in the company I was working. Turned out to be a total disaster. Only “key” personell were awarded - the conclusion being that anyone who didn’t get any were NOT key personell, so why on earth should they care what happens to the company.
If you want “world domination” you need ALL workers to care, and push in the same direction.
stefan Said,
August 12, 2006 @ 11:20 pm
I’ve thought for years this would be a good idea.
Just one recent example, my wife works in a company where she is paid a “good” salary. However, she hasn’t gotten promoted or received a raise in years. Whenever it comes up the explanations are always vague and the benchmarks are always subjective, and she is utterly demoralized by her non-progress.
MY theory is that she was hired in the dot-com boom era and paid more than people are now. When raises or promotions (with their implicit raises) are discussed (among her management) they just don’t want to give her a raise since she’s paid “too” much now, whether or not she’s qualified for promotion. But none of this gets discussed openly and certainly not directly to her, and she continues in limbo.
If salaries were open, then that issue would be on the table as part of the deliberations, and it might even be acceptable to at least *talk* about giving her a promotion with no raise to keep her in line with other employees.
dEOS » links for 2006-08-11 Said,
August 13, 2006 @ 9:21 pm
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea (tags: employment salaries) […]
Share the gold mine Said,
August 14, 2006 @ 9:47 am
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea […]
Nerd Fish » Blog Archive » Wanna know how much I make? Said,
August 15, 2006 @ 7:31 am
[…] The Chief Happiness Officer does. And he’s got good reason for wanting to know. Among other things, he thinks it might make salaries more fair, make it easier to retain the best employess and keep pressure on the highest earners to earn their keep. […]
Business & Finance » Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea Said,
August 15, 2006 @ 1:47 pm
[…] “It â��s a golden rule in most businesses that salaries must be kept secret. Except for a few heretics it is almost universally accepted that mayhem would ensue in the workplace if people knew what their co-workers, their managers or - gasp - the CEO was making.”read more | digg story […]
Comment roundup on secret salaries vs. open Said,
August 15, 2006 @ 10:12 pm
[…] When I wrote my post on why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea I didn’t realize what I was getting myself into. On most other posts I’ve written, 3 out of 4 commenters agree - in this case 3 out 4 thought that open salaries are a really baaaaaaaad idea. How many a’s are there in baaaad anyway? […]
Alexander Said,
August 15, 2006 @ 10:12 pm
Thanks again for all the great comments. I had no idea how controversial this issue would be, and I’m really glad to have this insight into the pros and cons of secret salaries.
I’ve done a comment roundup here: http://positivesharing.com/2006/08/the-case-against-open-salaries/
Let’s lose the job descriptions Said,
August 16, 2006 @ 2:37 pm
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea […]
Make your startup happy Said,
August 17, 2006 @ 4:12 pm
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea […]
The worst argument ever for overpaying executives Said,
August 21, 2006 @ 10:17 am
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea […]
gingerandjohn.com » Blog Archive » Compensation tactics Said,
August 22, 2006 @ 5:49 pm
[…] Two blog entries in recent days, both dealing with compensation (and in particular, “secret compensation”): * Why secret salaries are a bad idea * Four Principles for Compensation Decisions […]
Salaries: Keep them secret or make them public? Said,
August 23, 2006 @ 4:48 am
[…] I found an interesting pair of articles recently covering the topic of salaries. The first article, Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea, makes the case that all salaries should be public within a company. The arguments are pretty compelling, especially since I just finished reading Ricardo Semler’s book Maverick, which is an extraordinary book about an extraordinary company in Brazil. Among other things, employees set their own salaries, which are public. The argument for doing this is essentially two-fold: 1) It keeps the employer honest, discouraging inequities in pay, and 2) It keeps the employee honest as well, as employees that are higher paid will feel more like they have to work for it, since everyone knows how much they are making. I see the point in this, and at least conceptually I like the idea of having an open company, in which most details are known to all (in the case of Ricardo Semler’s company, profits and expenses are open to all as well). […]
The coolest way ever to recruit developers: Extreme Interviewing Said,
September 13, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea […]
Hidden Mojo » Blog Archive » How Better Systems Can Make Stars Of All Your Employees Said,
September 21, 2006 @ 7:01 am
[…] Salaries are inequitable. Alfie Kohn shreds the fallacy that cash is a good motivator and explains how equitable salaries lead to higher performance. People talk, and inequitable salaries are demotivating. […]
Darin Said,
September 25, 2006 @ 9:42 pm
I was sending news and information to a handful of engaged employees. I only sent information that was published about our company or our key competitors as I found it online. I did not filter anything, I provided links and the first paragraph or so of information. If it was provocative enough then people read it and we could talk about it over lunch or when we ran into each other. It stopped shortly after I linked to the executive’s salaries. I was given a stern speech and told to let my work die out slowly. Where did I get this information? On Yahoo! Finance. We are a publicly traded company so we have to file that information and I simply pointed out that we had a new filing. The top executives were supposedly super pissed off at me for exposing them to employees who were clearly paid so much less. However, we had a record-breaking year and my comment when I sent the link out was about how little they were paid compared to other executives I had worked with prior to coming to my current employer…
Alexander Said,
September 26, 2006 @ 9:42 am
Darin: I like the way you share interesting info - great idea.
So management got worked up over you spreading information that is publicly available? That seems just a tad silly :o)
Poll: Make salaries public? NO! Said,
October 7, 2006 @ 3:02 am
[…] As you can see from the responses (nearly 200 of them) 60% of respondents said fuhggedaboudit (AKA no). Originally based on this post from the Chief Happiness Officer, the poll was an attempt to see if people agreed with Alex who argues that there are a number of very compelling reasons to do away with the secret salary system. […]
Quitting over an unfair raise Said,
October 9, 2006 @ 9:50 pm
[…] And of course, the best way to make salaries more fair, is to make them public inside the company. […]
HappyCamper Said,
October 10, 2006 @ 7:04 am
Most of you are forgetting the fact that all large companies don’t give a rats patoot about their employees. Yes, I made a very large generalization here… it is true nonetheless.
If you can truly say that you are irreplaceable, that there is not another person on this earth that could ever do your job, then you are a mighty fine CIRCUS ACT. Good luck with it.
What was it that a former boss sent to the whole company… “Drop a rock in a bucket of water, see those few splashes that came out of the bucket? Now look back at the bucket, see any difference in the level? You are replaceable.”
Salaries will never be “open”, for one reason. Employees don’t matter enough for the employers to care.
Blog of Leonid Mamchenkov » Daily del.icio.us bookmarks Said,
October 10, 2006 @ 3:30 pm
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea Tagged as: business jobs management salary startup money communications […]
Jim Said,
October 11, 2006 @ 10:51 pm
I don’t live in Sweden, so I’m not sure if this is 100% accurate but I’ve heard that in Sweden everybody can go to the local tax office and inquire what any person’s salary is.
Office lady Said,
October 12, 2006 @ 3:26 am
I have a question, can anyone help? On our contracts, we are supposed to work 39 hours a week (excluding lunch hours).
So we all come in at 9 am and leave at 6 pm. But since we are supposed to work 39 hours only, we supposedly can leave at 5 pm one day of the week.
But of course nobody does and everyone works until at least 6 pm five days a week.
According to instructions, “of course” we can leave at 5 pm one day of the week….we just need to inform our supervisors first.
I of course also work until at least 6pm everyday, but sometimes, there are things that I wanna do that I want to leave early for.
Should I really not ask eventhough I am entitled to it? :(
Alexander Said,
October 12, 2006 @ 11:04 am
HappyCamper: I think you’re right. But slowly becoming wrong :o)
The thing is: Corporate culture is changing as companies face a need for more creativity and better service. You only get this from people who like their jobs.
While what you’re saying used to be the rule, this will change more and more over the next 10-20 years. And even faster if we do something about it ourselves - like leave the bad companies and go work for the good ones. They DO exist.
Jim: I believe that’s in Norway (or maybe in both countries). In any case, it shows that other people knowing your salary is hardly the end of the world :o)
Office lady: I posted your question as a separate post here:
http://positivesharing.com/2006/10/ask-the-cho-implied-overwork
I hope that’s helpful!
landed.ru Said,
October 12, 2006 @ 1:56 pm
we `d like to open new theme . Why we keep in secret our salaries we
told but how can we find investor for our project .It is more complex..
Project: the East is the West and the West is the East (the past and the present of Ukraine)
East is East, and West is West,
and never the twain shall meet.
R. Kipling
The urgency of project is caused by the searches for the bases of the mutual understanding of the cultures of Confucian, Buddhist, Islamic, Christian regions and to the solution of the problem of integral safety and steady development of global civilization.
From the lifetime of Tripoli’s culture (5-3 thousand years B.C.) the interpenetration of the cultural codes of the East and the West, the South and the North occurred in Baltic - Black Sea`s region, in which Ukraine occupies a central place.
Business
Content of the project: the political, cultural, religious, lingual, ethnic history of Europe’s peoples and their neighbors .
The purpose of project consists of the disclosure of the historically caused integrity of global civilization, in spite of the cultural, religious, lingual, ethnic variety of regions.
* General symbols of the civilizations, which existed in Asia, Africa, Europe from the end of 4 thousand B.C. prior to the beginning of 2 thousand B.C.
(In’-Shan, Kharappa, Schumer -Accade, ancient reign of Egypt, Crete -Mokena, Tripoli);
-the special features of ideas about the universe (cosmology), the sense of existence in the universe (ethics) and the society (morals) in the regions of the influence of Indo-European, Altai, Afro-Asian lingual families; the factors of the stratification of society on the Etna- religious criterion; the factors of the division of knowledge to the true, the sacral, the esoteric and the profaned, as well as the exoteric and the applied; the creation of sacral written languages by Brahma, Sanskrit, Avestic, Hebrew, Ven, Iyeratich, Crete`s, Tibetan, Cyrillic alphabet;
-the period of the decline of early civilizations, coincided with the migration of the Indo-Europeans, the Turks, the Semites (17-12 century to A.D..); the period of formation and decline of Chou, Bkharatavarsha, New Babylon’s reign, the Middle reign of Egypt, Middle-Persia, antiquity (13th century to A.D.), of Byzantium empire, Western Roman empire, Kasha’s empire, empires of Khan’, Maur’ya, (1-8 century);
-the reciprocal effect of Buddhism, confucianism, Christianity, Manichaeism , Zoroastrianism, Islam in the Khazarsky khanate, the caliphate, Kiev Russ (5-10 century); the separation of Kiev Russ into the right-bank (eastern) - and left-bank (western) (11 century), the domination of Orthodoxy and Islam on the left bank, Catholicism and unions on the right bank (12-16 century) political, economic, religious factors of the formation in Rech Pospolitaya the culture of Ashkenazi (14-17 century), the cultural, educational, ethnic policy of the Russian Empire and of the Soviet Union (17-20 century);
-the political, cultural, religious, ethnic stereotypes of the southeastern, central, northwestern and southwestern regions of Europe (20-21 century).
The film is to be finished in feb/2007th and think will be very attractive for common people . (3D animations, good screen and so on). We forecast attractive commercial effect. So could you inform us the possibility to take part in creation this very important project?
landed.ru Said,
October 12, 2006 @ 1:57 pm
we `d like to open new theme . Why we keep in secret our salaries we
told but how can we find investor for our project .It is more complex..
Project: the East is the West and the West is the East (the past and the present of Ukraine)
East is East, and West is West,
and never the twain shall meet.
R. Kipling
The urgency of project is caused by the searches for the bases of the mutual understanding of the cultures of Confucian, Buddhist, Islamic, Christian regions and to the solution of the problem of integral safety and steady development of global civilization.
From the lifetime of Tripoli’s culture (5-3 thousand years B.C.) the interpenetration of the cultural codes of the East and the West, the South and the North occurred in Baltic - Black Sea`s region, in which Ukraine occupies a central place.
Business
Content of the project: the political, cultural, religious, lingual, ethnic history of Europe’s peoples and their neighbors .
The purpose of project consists of the disclosure of the historically caused integrity of global civilization, in spite of the cultural, religious, lingual, ethnic variety of regions.
* General symbols of the civilizations, which existed in Asia, Africa, Europe from the end of 4 thousand B.C. prior to the beginning of 2 thousand B.C.
(In’-Shan, Kharappa, Schumer -Accade, ancient reign of Egypt, Crete -Mokena, Tripoli);
-the special features of ideas about the universe (cosmology), the sense of existence in the universe (ethics) and the society (morals) in the regions of the influence of Indo-European, Altai, Afro-Asian lingual families; the factors of the stratification of society on the Etna- religious criterion; the factors of the division of knowledge to the true, the sacral, the esoteric and the profaned, as well as the exoteric and the applied; the creation of sacral written languages by Brahma, Sanskrit, Avestic, Hebrew, Ven, Iyeratich, Crete`s, Tibetan, Cyrillic alphabet;
-the period of the decline of early civilizations, coincided with the migration of the Indo-Europeans, the Turks, the Semites (17-12 century to A.D..); the period of formation and decline of Chou, Bkharatavarsha, New Babylon’s reign, the Middle reign of Egypt, Middle-Persia, antiquity (13th century to A.D.), of Byzantium empire, Western Roman empire, Kasha’s empire, empires of Khan’, Maur’ya, (1-8 century);
-the reciprocal effect of Buddhism, confucianism, Christianity, Manichaeism , Zoroastrianism, Islam in the Khazarsky khanate, the caliphate, Kiev Russ (5-10 century); the separation of Kiev Russ into the right-bank (eastern) - and left-bank (western) (11 century), the domination of Orthodoxy and Islam on the left bank, Catholicism and unions on the right bank (12-16 century) political, economic, religious factors of the formation in Rech Pospolitaya the culture of Ashkenazi (14-17 century), the cultural, educational, ethnic policy of the Russian Empire and of the Soviet Union (17-20 century);
-the political, cultural, religious, ethnic stereotypes of the southeastern, central, northwestern and southwestern regions of Europe (20-21 century).
The film is to be finished in feb/2007th and think will be very attractive for common people . (3D animations, good screen and so on). We forecast attractive commercial effect. So could you inform us the possibility to take part in creation this very important project?
more at info@landed.ru request
Jim Said,
October 12, 2006 @ 9:59 pm
@Eric G:
great post and I myself always think “secret salaries” are more natural. yet if you have a transparent salary system that is easy to understand, wouldn’t that work?
probably a very low flat base salary for everyone with defined rules/goals for getting more (in the best case: requires people to work together/share information/etc.etc.etc.)
?
refactr » Blog Archive » Transparency in salaries Said,
October 18, 2006 @ 11:27 pm
[…] Alexander Kjerulf posted some time back about how secret salaries are a bad idea. Here are his major reasons: […]
Dave Ex Machina - A Thousand Points of Articulation » Don’t Tell Anyone, But… Said,
December 18, 2006 @ 11:37 pm
[…] Has it occurred to you that secret salaries are probably not in the best interest of workers? Other folks have, as you can read here. […]
Jim Stroud 2.0 » Blog Archive » The Week In Recruiting (Reading the blogs, so you won’t have to) Said,
December 30, 2006 @ 7:10 pm
[…] Pucker up) Mmmmwaah… 2. I don’t care if you’re qualified. I’m hiring you because I like you that much. 3. A manager who fuses professionalism with humanism in much the same way as Winston Churchill did, when he fused professionalism and humanism in defeating the Nazis. 4. First there is fascination, followed by hostility, followed by superiority and finally acceptance. What stage are you in? 5. ”How impotant re typos in yor resum?” 6. Nobody likes the way you interview, follow-up or hire in general. 7. We’re getting beat-up by the Swiss? 8. On average, Sourcers make 12% more money than Recruiters. 9. Letting me know how much money you make is what’s best for the company. 10. India recruits Australia. 11. When replying to email, sometimes its best not to hit “reply-all.” 12. Hmmm… I like how this guy is thinking. (Although I disagree with his 4 guesses.) 13. Do you have trouble concentrating? I do, its because… um…. what was I saying? 14. We are not arrogant, simply correct. 15. A recruiting blogger blogs. Same recruiting blogger blogs officially for company. Company fires recruiting blogger. Company (now) upset that the recruiter blogs about it. Go figure… […]
Most popular posts of 2006 Said,
January 2, 2007 @ 5:36 pm
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea […]
Two Ways To Make Your Company A Happier (and Better) Place to Work | Hidden Mojo Said,
January 6, 2007 @ 7:38 am
[…] Now, what added to my sense of unfairness was that salary info came out into the open. It almost always does, which is why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea. But what I–and many of my co-workers–learned was that our salaries were a function of how well we negotiated, and not how well we performed. This practice of paying people is unfortunately standard operating procedure in most big companies. […]
Mapgirl’s Fiscal Challenge / The Story of My Raise Said,
January 12, 2007 @ 9:42 pm
[…] Frist: I love this article on salary secretiveness. It’s brilliant! Read the follow up comment roundup as well. Mighty fascinating. […]
College Age Finance » links for 2007-01-13 Said,
January 14, 2007 @ 4:37 pm
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea (tags: social salary policy) […]
The Week In Recruiting (Reading the blogs, so you won’t have to) « JimStroud 3.0 Said,
January 15, 2007 @ 1:52 am
[…] My Fab15 for the week 1. Come here you! (Pucker up) Mmmmwaah… 2. I don’t care if you’re qualified. I’m hiring you because I like you that much. 3. A manager who fuses professionalism with humanism in much the same way as Winston Churchill did, when he fused professionalism and humanism in defeating the Nazis. 4. First there is fascination, followed by hostility, followed by superiority and finally acceptance. What stage are you in? 5. “How impotant re typos in yor resum?” 6. Nobody likes the way you interview, follow-up or hire in general. 7. We’re getting beat-up by the Swiss? 8. On average, Sourcers make 12% more money than Recruiters. 9. Letting me know how much money you make is what’s best for the company. […]
Sinosplice: Life Said,
January 29, 2007 @ 2:41 pm
Open Salaries: Not for China
I recently discussed the article Why Secret Salaries Are a Baaaaaad Idea with my Chinese friend Mike. It’s an interesting read. The main points the article makes for why open salaries are a good idea:
Salaries will become more fair. The system …
Lori Said,
February 2, 2007 @ 7:16 pm
As zeroization indicated, where there is an information asymmetry, there cannot be an efficient market.
As respondents too numerous to enumerate have indicated, people talk anyway.
Apparently (as of when I read the comments) nobody had discussed the likely presense of disinformation in such gossip.
It is a well known fact that an important reason some employers demand “salary requirements” from applicants
is to see whether they are informationally plugged in enough to know the going rate for the duties described.
If they ask for “salary history,” one can only assume they’re amassing a collection of information mixed with disinformation,
that they feel they have some use for. T. H. Ptacek informs us that you are generally going to make what you can sell yourself for.
The strategy for pricing anything involves knowing the going rate, which is an adversarial process, because information does
not want to be free. Neither, it seems, does confidentiality, in either its individual (privacy) or institutional (secrecy) forms.
It seems you will be flying blind if you are “above” indulging in gossip, including illicit gossip.
It also seems you will be disinformed if you take any gossip at face value, or for that matter information from official sources.
Our host Alexander has informed us that IT knows what everyone makes.
It seems the strongest incentives are for cultivating the skills of salesiness, bluffing, gossip, disinformation and espionage.
Perhaps those employers whose stock in trade includes competencies not listed above could indeed benefit from some degree of institutional transparency.
Exchange is that sphere of human activity in which no good deed goes unpunished.
landed.ru Said,
February 3, 2007 @ 11:37 am
WE agree with Lori that all info even regarding labour pricing and rates
trends should be not free. But, for instance, such big companies like Procter&Gamble, Coca-Cola are testing annualy a great number of potential employees and do not open salary level for applicants . They
do research in Human resources and make right choice but the small
companies have to believe in official statistic info and operate with great
disadvantages.
Five reasons to forget about money and focus on what makes you happy at work Said,
February 28, 2007 @ 11:39 am
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea […]
Happy at work at Nixon McInnes Said,
February 28, 2007 @ 9:45 pm
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea […]
shelly Said,
April 13, 2007 @ 8:25 pm
great piece of posting - some of the secretiveness has started to lessen with the advent of web services like http://www.salarybase.com where people share their package and get the relevant stats. Given the state of the web (in addition to what you mentioned simply about people talking) it’s almost inevitable that orgs will remove the secrecy of the data
Secret salaries revisited Said,
May 30, 2007 @ 8:39 am
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea […]
Ask the CHO: How do you hire a happy manager? Said,
June 20, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
[…] Why secret salaries are a baaaaaad idea […]
I BELIEVE ALL THOSE OPPOSED WOULD FEEL COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IF "SECRET SALARIES" EFFECTED THEM IN A NEGATIVE WAY! Said,
July 2, 2007 @ 8:30 am
I never really had a problem with salaries being secret until last month. I always felt like it was sort of silly that companies made such a big deal about it. I started working for this company & busted my ass in a position that was really meant to be two positions. I was salary & worked at least 55 hours a week. After a while I received a promotion & the company hired two girls to take over my position. Girl #1 was hired for one position & she was & still is fantastic. After some time she received a promotion as well, for the same type of position I had been promoted to, just in another territory. Now, girl #2 sits at her desk all day long & instant messages, talks on the phone, organizes her children’s sporting events. She isn’t given any projects to work on, or any significant amount of work or responsibilityb/c it would be incorrect or done poorly.
In the meantime, I’ve been performing my new job for 6 months, but still haven’t received my promotional raise. But, no worries b/c evaluations were coming up, which is when I was going to get my raise & girl# 1 was going to get hers as well.
I would say about three weeks before the evaluations, Girl #2 proceeds to tell me & girl #1 how much she makes & it happens to be $2,000 more than me & $3,000 more than Girl #1 & she had been making that since her first day. So, even though she’s in the lower scale position, much, much, more inexperienced, she does absolutely nothing while she’s there, she’s only been with the company 6 months, where I’ve been with them for 2 years; and she still makes $2000 more a year. So, you tell me how that’s fair?
I know this sort of thing has happened to a couple of others as well, it was just different circumstances. The worst part about the whole situation is that I know & there is not a damn thing I can do about it.
If a company is fair in the way they compensate their employees then they should have nothing to hide. I don’t see how anyone could be upset by a person making more money if they had more experience & there qualifications were better suited for the job. Now if one person isn’t making that much money, but has the same experience, qualifications, & seniority, then they have a right to argue there case.
After all, we live in a democracy, not a communism.
J Said,
July 10, 2007 @ 10:23 am
I think that the idea of an open salary is a good one if - and only if - the individuals involved are all highly motivated contributors to the growth and development of the company.
This may work well in a smaller organisation that is growing but will hardly work elsewhere for one important reason - it assumes that individuals are going to be reasonable and accepting of differences in salary.
I can see this working well in a tech company - especially where there are many developers for the simple reason that developer